for any one who cares this was how i got around it ... i set my edge to show so i could work out where they were and this revealed that they were all over the place in these areas (sugesting that when i had combined the legs to the torso, while they had become one object they had not fully combined and that there were lots of edges that were still not attached i was able to go through them and useing "edit poly>merge vertices" join all the loose edges. im currently at work but if i have a saved version of that stage i will post picture to articulate what i have said ... this may be just another way to skin this cat ... i wouldnt mind knowing what the initial error was that set me down this path tho, i figure it was me that started the trouble "there is no such thing as stupid Maya only stupid user":blush: