Poser/Bryce do we hate it or love it? - Page 2

# 16 07-06-2003 , 06:36 AM

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sometimes we have to think about this: user added image

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# 17 07-06-2003 , 06:59 AM

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lol

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# 18 07-06-2003 , 08:14 AM

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I agree with all points.. sure the one button and tada you have what it said on the box sollution is very annoying. But Bryce and poser do give people an entery level to just find out if their interested in 3D, i mean... if we all started out with maya we wouldnt get so far so quickly as it is much harder to get results.. Programs like Bryce give opertunity to see what kind of results you can get and 'should' inspire you to continue onto other programs.

But i think as much as some of use despise these programs now, many of use wouldnt be using maya if it wasnt for them. Poser is the worst for the single button jobs.... add hair button, select hight, select pose even. But that doesnt mean you cant make somthing out of it, i just wouldnt be satisfied with my work as i didnt make it myself.

uh.. i think the orc builder .. they modeld sections of orc which where then built togeather randomly or somthing, so there still making it themselves to a certain extent.. and to say that instant terrain is a bad thing we probably do it all the time, in my lightwave days i added gray scale displacement maps using procedurals to get my terrain.. looked fantastic....

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# 19 08-06-2003 , 12:05 AM

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Again, I do NOT wanna piss off anyone here, as it's just my crappy opinion, and to each his own...

Originally Posted by

I Could not agree more with Rage. I really did not want to offend anyone I was simply speaking out of angst and frustration towards those depend on the presets and default shaders, yet get the most attention and are regarded as being "Skilled Modellers." As Laurie priest said many art communities are overcrowded with those who simply think they're the best because they abuse the presets. I think presets can be great for example purposes when it comes to learning how things work and are put together on a professional level, I know I have learned much from looking at the presets in the Maya shader library as well as the fluid presets and even some character models on the A|W website. However for those who abuse them, defaults and presets do an injustice to those artists who actually spend weeks or months modelling/texturing/mapping/rigging and animating a quality character. I do understand that Bryce is a good stepping stone towards greater 3d programs like Maya and I agree with you that many people have used it and have learned much from them. I know I have used it quite a few times in the past before I even knew what Maya was, and I still use it occasionally(rarely) today. It's just sad when people claim they are skilled because they simply create a sphere, use the multi replicate tool, and slap on a F-ing Christmas Ball shader for every single image they make.

I call Bryce "crap" because it has the single most agonizing and painful workflow/interface layout from just about any other software program I have ever used in my life. I appreciate that not everyone feels this way about the program, but once again, I am only stating my opinion. I did not want to seem ignorant or biased, and I do not consider myself either since I have experience with those programs. I just think the purpose of threads like these are for people to state what they think about the program. I know I have read posts on this site by people claiming the Maya software renderer was "crap." While I do not fully agree with this I can understand that they feel that way and once again, the purpose of threads like these are for people to state their opinion.

If on the the other hand you were to post an image that I did not particularily like I would not bash it and call it a crappy image, because that obviously does not help anything. Instead I would simply state that I did not like it and explain why I did not like it as well as offer constructive criticism on how I think it could be improved.

I know I may seem a bit blunt on this subject, but as I said I do not think the best image should go to those who use the best presets.

To each his own.

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# 20 08-06-2003 , 12:13 AM

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I don't really have the problem with that... afterall, people with half a brain cell can recognize such things, and employers definitely can. If anyone wants to seriously do this as a career, they're not going to get very far abusing presets as such. They're only hurting themselves.

As for those without that half brain cell who CAN'T recognize this fact and call those same people "good artists' then I can't imagine they are helping themselves much either.

-Mike
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# 21 08-06-2003 , 01:54 AM

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I had an old version of poser that came on some old magazine front cover and it was partly that that made me want to make models for myself, because there are only so many default things you can look at. Never tried Bryce, tried old versions of Max, Truespace and Cinema 3D but like Maya best by far.

It is easy to tell a poser model, even for a new fish like myself but I think one should make a distinction between people passing poser models off as their own work and people saying hey this is what I did in poser what do you think, those people who are just out to compose an image not model things.

If people want to create great still images without modelling then why shouldn't they use premade models; the important thing for me is they should SAY they are doing that.

I have seen some really nice pieces created with both Bryce and Poser but for me the fun is as much in the making as in the posing. I'd rather have a half arsed model made by me than a great one made by poser. Which is a good job given my models! But I do think one can class such pieces as decent art, they are just a different facet of it. It's people lying about making the models which is the problem with those programmes, not the programmes themselves imho.

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# 22 08-06-2003 , 05:38 AM

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Originally posted by Witchy
If people want to create great still images without modelling then why shouldn't they use premade models; the important thing for me is they should SAY they are doing that.
...
It's people lying about making the models which is the problem with those programmes, not the programmes themselves imho.

Originally Posted by

yes, I agree. But not just lying, it's ignorance that really bugs me as well - when a person presumes that the presets are 'theirs' once they have used them. It's when the artist does not give credit to the presets that a problem arises.

I also hate it when you can look at an image and say "the material on that ball is christmas ball #13 and that lightening effect is Lightening #2 from Ulead PhotoImpact 8."

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# 23 08-06-2003 , 07:29 AM

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Amen to that, its true.. but i agree with mike, anyone who starts off with poser or bryce and realises that .. its not there own stuff, but by using them gets interested into 3D and so moves on to the greater packages out there, i dont mind that. But yeh.. the people who just.. throw a load of presets into a scene and render it out as a piece of their art.... .. i do not agree with at all.
-Laurie

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# 24 08-06-2003 , 10:02 AM

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Originally posted by LauriePriest
Amen to that, its true.. but i agree with mike, anyone who starts off with poser or bryce and realises that .. its not there own stuff, but by using them gets interested into 3D and so moves on to the greater packages out there, i dont mind that. But yeh.. the people who just.. throw a load of presets into a scene and render it out as a piece of their art.... .. i do not agree with at all.
-Laurie

Originally Posted by

That is exactly how I feel!!:thumbsup: because that's the way i came to Maya.

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# 25 08-06-2003 , 12:07 PM

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THANK YOU HOWARD for this lovely rant/discussion, I TOO started in bryce, and made some cool animations. But all with borrowed models and tweaked textures that i found on the net. I'm much more "Proud" as izzy said, of my work now and just feel much more empowered. Although i don't think bryce hurt the learning process IN THE SLIGHTEST.

Thank you all for you're wisdom, i feel kinda like Neo after reading these big chats (as if the info is being downloaded to my brain)

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# 26 08-06-2003 , 03:23 PM

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>>yes, I agree. But not just lying, it's ignorance that really bugs me as well

I am less bugged by ignorance, unless it be wilful, than by deceit.

In the case of ignorance people can always be helped and encouraged to see what they are doing and the difference between using a model and making one. In the case of lying they have set out to deceive and that's rather different. One cannot expect someone to automatically know everything one already does. Knowledge is mostly gained not preinstalled, to use a software metaphor.

I don't condemn people who don't realise how people feel about the use of premade models and structures etc, I'd encourage them to come to a jolly site like this and learn why people feel like that and why it is more fun to make things yourself.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from joining the 3d modelling 'scene' however they got here- not all of us are professionals or even aspiring professionals and all of us were new at some point.

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# 27 08-06-2003 , 08:53 PM

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i have mixed position on this. i used bryce for a long time and know how easily someone can make a good, easily made model to fool most people into thinking it took a long time. ive even made some. But when someone makes a truly unique model. they should be given credit, even if its done with bryce and poser. Like lots of people use basic textures while more advanced edit every texture they use. Some people use basic terrains while others use a 2d editor, make it the correct size and load it into bryce using greyscale to get some freaky looking terrains(i always enjoyed doing that). Its not the program that should really be to blame. its that many people dont taker the time to use all of the options to a program, because all the presets on the front they ceat and use those.

I bet with all the people here who have used bryce. I bet less than half have minipulated thier own grayscale map for the prupose of creating a waterfall or something? Or made an entire model out of metaballs...

How many bryce modelrs do you know thqat routinley use the intersect command?

I still say its not the program at fault. its people dont fully know the power of a program so they dont use the harder to minipulate interface, instead they create ball slap a pretexture on it and pass it off.

Just because someone uses bryce or poser you should not count them as a bad artist.

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# 28 11-06-2003 , 03:28 AM

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I believe you are right. The software is the medium and the true test of the artist is their vision and knowledge. The consensus seems to be that these apps are great for the introduction to 3d through their abillity to achieve quick and easy results.

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