are 3D apps users snobs..?

# 1 17-03-2006 , 05:03 AM

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there seems a bit of a fable going around the film makers circut here that animators and modellers are snobs who keep their knowledge and secrets (?) close to their chest.

this is coming from the local production houses,obviously not the animation houses, that we're a bunch of snobs.

anybody heard this before.

personaly, I'm usually very generous with information and willing to share but with Maya, it is the first time I have kept something like this (guitar, drawing, audio and sound apps, ect) to myself. If someone showd a genuine interest i might show them a few tricks but after 12 months at loosely 4 hours a day on Maya I'm to willing to jus teach anyone, not to mention I feel it may risk a job in the future?? stupid thinking but i can't help it. 3D is so relatively new here with not a lot of expertise, generally the TV commercials look like tuts that have been reveamped, so I figure another year or so and i might be in with a chance.

so what do you reckon, do we keep it between ourselves or are we the sharing kind??

take it easy and life will be easy

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# 2 17-03-2006 , 06:10 AM

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Most people using any kind of software seem to keep some little tricks to themselves. Photoshops a really good example. People will rarely ever say how they made a sig (well, in detail anyways) because then more and more people will be using it. I've noticed people do this all the time. Like at school when we do work in Microsoft Excel, most people will not tell others how to speed fill cells.

I dont really like giving away my ways of doing things for 2 reasons. Mostly because I think its better to learn things for yourself, just doing things how others do it just isnt my style. The other reason is because say you made something on your own that took a few hours to figure out. Someone else comes along and asks how to do the same thing, and with no work at all, they get their answer. Almost doesnt seem fair to me.

Of course if someone needs help with something, (like how to use _____ tool, etc) its different. I'm refering more to like asking how someone made a certain thing.

Also Maya is a pretty complex program. It takes a long time to learn, so not like people want to just pass their skills around aimlessly, if you worked hard to get where you are, why shouldnt others?

Last edited by Coldfire; 17-03-2006 at 06:12 AM.

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# 3 18-03-2006 , 12:23 AM

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I'm glad you said that, that's how I feel exactly on all fronts. Never before have I felt like this; I used ti teach guitar and was happy to show people tricks that took two years to discover and ten minutes to show. I figured it was OK and it was what they did with the knowledge; yo can take a horse to water but you can't make him play guitar...? well you know what I mean.

Maya is a tough learning curve; incredibly intimidating and i can see my self having to make a decision as to what area i should concentrate on or I will be doing odds and ends on Maya forever that amount to nothing.

I might end up just trying to incorporate it into footage as photorealistic SPX, one fellow simply maya person suggested a CG potplant as the nutruel character of a movie (an example) which I thought a great way to use what limited abilities I have.

The other thing is, while these production houses are calling CG guys snobs, they look pretty snobby themselves. It really is about who you know and i find at times having to throw names around just to be looked at and I hate that.

take it easy and life will be easy

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# 4 18-03-2006 , 12:36 AM

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I agree with Coldfire, If you've spent lots of money and time honing your skill, theres no point giving it away for free otherwise your not going to get where you want in life.

Maya is a huge learning curve and I think that everyone (on here especially) will tell you the basics to get you going. On the other hand trying to expalin, even show, something complex is very hard and therefore people shy away from it.

I used Maya to incorporate things into real footage but i'm really liking the idea of trying to create something completly 3d with te use of other app's (Worldbuilder being one)

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# 5 18-03-2006 , 12:52 AM

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similar feelings here gster123, about the incorporation og CG but wanting to do a whole flick oneday, I've even the world builder from 3D world. How you finding it, I've looked at it a few times but it sort of does my head in. You Ok with it??

I find the people here very helpful where ever possible, I certainly have had no problems asking and being given advise, it is sort of nice to be able to talk to people about this stuff and not sound like your blowing a horn.., well here, with my limited ability it is humbling, wish I could find a balance. Maybe just not appreciative enough of my own ability, especially since I had to learn every corner of Maya alone until I visited this site. (many more corners left to explore)

complex? yea, that's what the tuts are for eh?! user added image

:headbang: user added image

take it easy and life will be easy

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# 6 18-03-2006 , 02:04 AM

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Originally posted by gster123
I agree with Coldfire, If you've spent lots of money and time honing your skill, theres no point giving it away for free otherwise your not going to get where you want in life.

Maya is a huge learning curve and I think that everyone (on here especially) will tell you the basics to get you going. On the other hand trying to expalin, even show, something complex is very hard and therefore people shy away from it.

Originally Posted by

what an ignorant statement...

the people that put up free tuts on the web spent their hard time and money to learn and they are sharing it for free. free plugins to free mel scripts.. those are other people's best kept secret, it makes their workflow easier... but they share it. Mirek03, thiose very tuts you are learning from, are peoples best secret...
i guess you all say you wouldnt share because you've never watched a free tut or googled free tuts or dwnld some free scripts/shaders etc....
if whenever you asked for help and people would say "i cant help cuz i spent time and money to learn" then im sure many people wouldnt learn.
i dont want to be picky, and i know you dont mean having to teach someone to the minute detail, but sharing in this field is a 2 way street. whenever i share a technique with a co worker/or friend they in-turn share something with me; and i always feel compeled to share with them when they do teach me a new trick.

i think in this profession, people dont steal "techniques", they apply them. you cant compare this with other fields [i.e. business, banking, or other coporate jobs]
i feel the cg industry is a big collective mind at work. we share our best knowledge, we hence develop even more superior knowledge, and so one. .

i totally disagree with the last few posts.

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# 7 18-03-2006 , 02:11 AM

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I don't generally mind teaching people tricks and how to do things. With my books, I'm potentially making things difficult for me by letting young upstarts know the ins and outs of game asset production, but I don't really think that's the case.

Knowing all the tricks in the world won't make good art. You still need to have the talent. That's why I dont worry about it and very much encourage sharing techniques with your fellows.

-Mike
The Maya Toolbelt

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# 8 18-03-2006 , 02:17 AM

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Originally posted by vladimirjp
what an ignorant statement...

the people that put up free tuts on the web spent their hard time and money to learn and they are sharing it for free. free plugins to free mel scripts.. those are other people's best kept secret, it makes their workflow easier... but they share it. Mirek03, thiose very tuts you are learning from, are peoples best secret...
i guess you all say you wouldnt share because you've never watched a free tut or googled free tuts or dwnld some free i dont want to be picky, and i know you dont mean having to scripts/shaders etc....
if whenever you asked for help and people would say "i cant help cuz i spent time and money to learn" then im sure many people wouldnt learn.
teach someone to the minute detail, but sharing in this field is a 2 way street. whenever i share a technique with a co worker/or friend they in-turn share something with me; and i always feel compeled to share with them when they do teach me a new trick.

i think in this profession, people dont steal "techniques", they apply them. you cant compare this with other fields [i.e. business, banking, or other coporate jobs]
i feel the cg industry is a big collective mind at work. we share our best knowledge, we hence develop even more superior knowledge, and so one. .

i totally disagree with the last few posts.

Originally Posted by

I didnt mean it like that, but if you want to get really good you can't rely on people to do the work for you, or nurse you through it, I mean, are you going to tell me in detail/otherwise how you created something, say your komodo dragon??

What I mean is your gonna show someone the "ropes" which I totaly agree with other wise I wouldent be able to make more than a cube! So dont get me wrong, to me its like showing some one the basics but then you leave them to create somemting themselves, i.e you dont ask Jimmy Hendrix to show you how to play Purple

Last edited by gster123; 18-03-2006 at 02:40 AM.

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# 9 18-03-2006 , 02:36 AM

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Originally posted by gster123
I didnt mean it like that, but if you want to get really good you can't rely on people to do the work for you, or nurse you through it, I mean, are you going to tell me in detail/otherwise how you created something, say your komodo dragon??

What I mean is your gonna show someone the "ropes" then leave them to create somemting themselves, i.e you dont ask Jimmy Hendrix to show you how to play Purple Haze when you ain't even picked up a guitar.

Originally Posted by

only one man can ever play purple haze and thats hendrix user added image

but this topic is very broad, i dont want to get into cemantics;
however, teaching a "technique" often times in cg, is simply "understanding" a technique". if i show someone how i animated a scene step by step, and ask the person to use my technique and re animate the same scene, i guarantee you it would be different. but we would take the same approach at problem solving, thats all.
so teaching someone your best knowledge does not mean that person's work will be better than yours; not in cg it doesnt. [maybe in martial arts or nuclear physics to some extend... ] but this is art. even if daVinci taught me how to paint, doesnt mean i would ever surpass him, maybe i would use his technique... thats all man. its exactly wha mike said. and that holds true
but i totally understand what you mean by this "but if you want to get really good you can't rely on people to do the work for you, or nurse you through it," and thats very true. but thats a slightly differenty topic user added image

cheers

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Last edited by vladimirjp; 18-03-2006 at 02:38 AM.

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# 10 18-03-2006 , 02:50 AM

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Originally posted by vladimirjp
only one man can ever play purple haze and thats hendrix

but this topic is very broad, i dont want to get into cemantics;
however, teaching a "technique" often times in cg, is simply "understanding" a technique". if i show someone how i animated a scene step by step, and ask the person to use my technique and re animate the same scene, i guarantee you it would be different. but we would take the same approach at problem solving, thats all.
so teaching someone your best knowledge does not mean that person's work will be better than yours; not in cg it doesnt. [maybe in martial arts or nuclear physics to some extend... ] but this is art. even if daVinci taught me how to paint, doesnt mean i would ever surpass him, maybe i would use his technique... thats all man. its exactly wha mike said. and that holds true
but i totally understand what you mean by this "but if you want to get really good you can't rely on people to do the work for you, or nurse you through it," and thats very true. but thats a slightly differenty topic

cheers

Originally Posted by

Very true, its a hard thing to describe beauce of the individuality involved. I used to work in the manufacturing design sector where it was always the same product and line.

Which is totaly different, which I need to sort out.

Tis like people think playin the guitar is bashing some strings and really easy.........

Tell the man .... HENDRIX!!

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# 11 18-03-2006 , 07:59 AM

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like I said, when I taught guitar I liked very much to show people my tricks and, as Mike has pointed out, it is up to the person's ability what they do with it. A few became celebrities but that's another story. At the same time, even if I do show a blues scale that took me two years of self teaching (intense) it doesn't mean that the person given that knowledge can apply it without practise. It is all about feel and that only comes with sweat and tears.

it is only that CG people have this reputation that I don't find here at 'simply Maya' We all think the same so far, just said differently and we all know about the two way street; maybe the production houses feel threatened?? I don't know, it was just that twice in one week some 'pros' made such a comment. (we're snobby and keep our secrets to ourselves)

I wonder why?? Also, as I said, someone I didn't know wanted me to teach him Maya, which I was happy to do until he showed no real interest except trying to get his hands on a program, when I reminded him that wasn't legal and offered the PLE, I haven't seen him since. So maybe my feelings were justified.

As far as Mike, Kevin Ernie, and others who have done the tuts (I am yet a VIP member because I am so very poor, hard enough buying food and books, and also I haven't worked out how to get the money over there without a credit card, mike sent me a detail but i had no money at that time and lost the details) but as far as those guys are concerned, I have said before, there is a place in heaven for them all and I'm sure the respect they have recieved from so many who have learnt from them must be extraordinary and worth the time and effort they put in, they all have my total respect and I hope I can do the same one day for people.

take it easy and life will be easy

Last edited by mirek03; 18-03-2006 at 08:02 AM.

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# 12 21-11-2006 , 12:41 AM

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snobs?

Hello everyone,

I don't agree with any concept that frowns on the passing of knowledge. I relied heavily on tuts to get started with maya. An actual working example or even a downloadable scene that I can take apart, do more to show the way than any book. Most books are edited so badly that what your looking for is not even in it. Another important thing about tuts that I see, is multiple ways to accomplish the same task. The world is round people, if you could shoot an arrow all the way around, it would stick in your @$$.

"I want to write a story."

"Here is a piece of paper, you can write on it. You have these tools to use; a pencil, a pen and a crayon. Oh, by the way here is a neat tool to speed up the job; a typewriter."

We now have Word and many other tools at our disposal, to make things faster and easier. Try and find a tut online for using these that is not free. These used to be big $$ programs, only available to the business community, similar to high end CAD programs. Anyone can download a fully functional learning edition for free, to learn. Which is what most of the users on here have done.<cough> We did not get as far as we are now by being stingy or selfish, at least not all the time. If you want to keep it for yourself, fine someone else will tell me. Openly sharing knowledge should be as self gratifying to the giver as it is the reciever, if not more. I have played guitar since I was nine, I willingly show others tricks on a regular basis. I will even show someone how to play their favorite song note for note, if I have the time. Why? Because it makes me feel really, really gooood.

My only disappointment in the passing of my knowledge to someone else, is when they don't do anything with it.

In 1990, I taught someone how to play guitar from ground zero, we spent several hours a week together, for almost a year, while he struggled to grasp the simplest licks. He is on MTV now and I am not. Did I put him there? NO. Did I help? Maybe. Would he have gotten there without me? Most likely. Does he still look up to me as a mentor? I hope not, because I never looked at him as a pupil. To me, the playing surface has always been level, I just got a head start. We both own a guitar, we both have hands to play it with, and it's a lot more fun jammin with someone when they have something to share. "I play for free, I play for me, I don't want to be a rock star, I just like to play guitar."

Mr. McKinley, I raid your tuts quite frequently. Usually, I am looking for reference to a single tool that you use in that tut. Your contributions are well laid out and informative, for that, I thank you. I only wish I could provide to the growing CG "community" as much as you have.

Thank you.

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# 13 22-11-2006 , 12:54 AM

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good show barnam - I agree. Passing of knowledge is a good thing.

I see it in my job everyday - where communication shuts down because everyone wants job security. Unfortunately - Don't know if that will ever change overall. I'm in the IT industry and it is well known that in the US tons of jobs are going overseas - especially to India. That scares a lot of people - including me. But it also drives me to become a better - and more educated - worker.

Usually I'm all for open source - tends to be the best type of material (software and other intellectual property, etc.) and leads to higher quality and more creativity.

as it applies to this site - if someone watches a tut or is hand-fed material - so what? If it is complex enough they won't "really" learn it unless they are either very talented in the first place or actually put an effort to really learn it anyways.

If I'm not making sense it's cause I need to get to bed - long long day.

cheers.

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# 14 22-11-2006 , 04:29 AM

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i started this thread a long time ago (who the hell cares who started it) and my thinking is a little different now, maybe, if you swim with sharks you become one or get eaten.

all well and good to be idealistic but here is a scenario;

you have started a animation house and you have put ALOT of time into your craft and now you can program your own scripts. There is an animation house down the street and it is losing money, going bankrupt because YOU have made a tool for your app that increases the quality and makes the render times 50 times faster. Hence you are getting the work because YOU put in the work. Are you going to walk down the street and give the tool to the boys in the other animation house because they are going out of work because of you??

Mates, I'm as idealistic as the next, (i do try to share what i can)i think there are a few here that would agree but...

so DOES what goes around come around and what is it that goes around that comes around?? I have a few theories but...

take it easy and life will be easy

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# 15 22-11-2006 , 05:07 AM

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Hey All,

Well, the sharing of knowledge with others has it boundaries, lines and exceptions to the rules, the same as everything has in this world.

As an individual I feel that it is a good thing to pass on knowledge to others, but maybe its the way you do it and not what you pass on. I would rather hint at a solution and let the other party figure it out for themselves (with a little coaxing), than just give them the answer outright. Is it not better for them to come to the conclusion on their own than have it handed on a plate. I say yes, its the way I have always pass my knowledge onto the next and it has always seemed to work.

As a company, as in mirek's example, there is no way you would openly give a competitor any help what so ever (unless you planned to take them over :p), why should you suffer for your own benefits and learning just so you have competition back.

Chris (formerly R@nSiD)
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